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TIBETEAN AFFINITES OF THE LICHCHAVIS


TIBETEAN AFFINITES OF THE LICHCHAVIS:

NATIONALITY OF LICHCHAVIS


The Lichchavis whose form of republican government was noticed by orientalists in the first instance attracted the attention of the and curiosity and gave various views points.


Celebrated Dr V. A. Smith wrote a short paper on The Tibetean Affinities of the Lichchavis [see his Early History of India, 3rd Ed, p 155, Dr Smith]. This paper is refered to in successive editions of Dr V. A. Smiths History, and has been often taken by others as having eastablished its thesis.


Dr Smith bases his theory, firstly on the custom of exposure by the Lichchavis of Vaisalis (=Nichchavis of Manu/Kulluka, Buddhaghosa, Nisibis/Nisivis/Nisaii of Persian lands etc), of dead human bodies ..a custom which he says also prevails in Tibet. And secondly also on the judicial procedure of the lichchavis, which according to Dr Smith, has a very close resemblance with the procedures followed in ancient Tibet.


(1) COMMON OBSESUIAL CUSTOMS OF DISPOSING THE DEADS BY TIBTETEANS /LICHCHAVIS:


Dr Smith based his theory on the powerful evidential Chinese legend saying that Buddha at Vaisali had observed a cemetery of the Lichchavis, under the clump of trees and had the cemetery described to him by the Rishis as under:


In that place, the corpuses of the men are exposed to be devored by the birds; and there also they collect and pile up white bones of dead persons, as you perceive; they burn corpuses there also and preserve the bones in heaps. They hang the dead bodies also from the trees; there are others buried there such as have been slain and put to death by their relatives, dreading lest they should come to life again; whilst others are left there upon the ground that they may return, if possible, to their former homes ..[ Beal, Romantic Legend of Sakya Buddha, p 159].


Based on this outside evidence, Dr Smith has considered the Lichchavis to have been of Tibetean origin. The passage above is from an ancient Chinese legend, 4/5th c AD, relating to Buddha, and therefore, an outside very powerful evidence confirming the obsequial rituals of the ancient Lichchavis regarding the disposal of their deads.

How can anybody in his sane mind refuse the truth conveyed by this ancient non-Indian evidence regarding the funeral rituals of ancient Lichchavis?

From above it is also worth noting that the exposure of the deads was also a Tibetean custom.


But Why Tibetean? And how come Tibet/Tibeteans came to be connected to this ancient Persian custom?


The straight and few word answer to this question is The Iranian Kambojas from eastern Iran had introduced this custom into Tibet in the pre-christian era. The Kambojas are also powerfully documented to be historically connected with Tibet and that the Tibetean Kambojas had ruled Tibet for many many centuries. Apparently, the custom amongst the Tibeteans, came to this land through the Kambojas who had ruled over this country.


It has to be noted that exactly similar were the funeral rituals of the Ancient Persians. And the Kambojas being from Persian stock, and thus we can see a probable link between the Lichchavis (=Nisivis=Nichchavis)/Tibeteans and the Ancient Persians/Kambojas.


(2) TIBTETEAN/LICHCHAVI COMMON CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

The second issue on which Dr V. A. Smith has relied to establish his theory of Tibetean Affinities of the Lichchavis is based on the close resemblance of criminal procedure followed by the Lichchavis and the Tibeteans. [For full description of Dr Smiths views on Lichchavi/Tibtean criminal procedure, see Ind Ant 1903, p 235,Also see Turner, the Authority of Dr V. A. Smith on Lichchavi procedure in Journal of Royal Asiatic Society, 1838, I, 993-994; Stages in Tibetean Procedures , as described by Babu Sarat Chandra DaS, Proc A.S.B, 1894, p 5]


Notwithstanding the counter views of some early Indian scholars like Dr K. P. Jayswal, Dr B. C. Law etc, voiced and based apparently on Patriotic/Indian-natialisist sentiments, the views of Dr Smith and scholars of his school including Dr Satish Vidyabhusana etc remain to be effectively challenged. The Chinese evidence of 4/5th c is very powerful independent evidence to connect the Lichchavis and the Tibeteans and hence the Lichchavis/Tibetean and the Persians/Kambojas as people belonging to one ancient Stock.


We will see some common features between the Ancient Kamboja Kshatryas and ancient Lichchavi Kshatryas, in later write up.

A short excerpt from Rig veda celebrates the warrior god Indra's victory over the evil Vrta.The opening line contains a number of words with numerous cognates in the other Indo-European languages.For example,nu is the same as Greek,Old Irisih,Lithuanian and Old English nu 'now'.Indra's heroic deeds viryani are 'manly deeds' from the root vir -which is also found in Latin vir.Old Irish fer. Lithuanian vyras and Old English wer where it still survives in the compound werewolf.To proclaim,literally 'speak forth' pra vocam is cognate with Latin pro 'forth' and vovo 'I call'.



pp. 37 The language of the Vedas is very archaic,and the cultural and geographical world portrayed in these hyms suggests that they were composed in northwest India sometime before the first millennium BC with a notional date of around 1500-1200BC.


pp. 39 The primary ceramic evidence for migration of Indo-Aryans into the region of the Hurrians are the black and grey wares that appear abruptly in northern Mesopotamia and which Ghirshman derives ultimately from the southeast Caspian


pp. 41..and at no time prior to the second millennium BC can we regard Southwest Asia as practicing the horse-and chariot-centred warfare that one finds among the Indo-Aryans.The earliest evidence for the horse in Western Asia is presently limited to Tal-I Iblis in south-central Iran(3500BC) and Selenkahiyeh in Syria(2400-2000BC),and its attestation in cuneiform texts appears to be similarly late and dates to the end of the third millennium BC.But from early in the second millennium BC we find unequivocal evidence for both the horse and the chariot,and by the seventeenth-sixteenth centuries this form of warfare is found from northern Anatolia south to Nubia,which illustrates the rapid spread of this revolutionary technology.J.H. Crouwel and M.a. Littauer have argued that this evidence suggests a perfectly logical evolution of the two wheeled cart into the spoked-wheeled chariot within Western Asia itself prior to the appearance of the Indo-Aryans whose presence in this region cannot be demonstrated before about 1600BC.


No easy solution presents itself since the problems here involve at least three issues which need not necessarily be linkedthe origin of the domestic horse in Southwest Asia,the origins of the chariot,and the date of Indo-Aryan movements in the region.pp.42But we should not be too quick to exclude the possibility that the earliest chariots were associated with Indo-Aryans because the Indo-Aryans are not attested in the Near East until several centuries after the appearance of chariots..


***It is highly probable that the Indo-Aryans of Western Asia migrated eastwards,for example with the collapse of the Mitanni,and wandered into India.either the Indo-Aryans divided south of an earlier staging area with some moving east and others far to the west,or they actually immigrated in mass forming a broad continuum across Western Asia to the Indus and were later divided by the incursion of Iranian-speaking peoples.The first explanation is still along those lines advanced by Ghirshman and others while Indologist,Thomas Burrow,has argued for an initial Indo-aryan settlement not only north of Mesopotamia but also of the Iranian plateau itself.The arguments are primarily linguistic and religious,among which the latter is the most intriguing.


Part 2

...in addition,it was not only merely the similarities of sounds that were striking but the structure of the languages as well.The Sanskrit and Lati words for fire,agnis and ignis respectively,are not only similar in sound but display similar changes in different grammatical cases:


nominative singular agnis(Sanskrit) ignis(Latin)

Accusative Singular agnim(Sanskrit) ignem(Latin)

Dative/Ablative P. agnibhyas(Sanskrit) ignibus(Latin


pp. 24 ...The Indo-Europeans did not burst into history;they straggled in over a period of 3500 years,announcing their arrival in the historical record as varied media as clay tablets in Anatolia and Greece,inscriptions carved on the face of an Iranian cliff,a dedicatory inscription on a German helmet or a Lutheran catechism for pagan Lithuanians....


The earliest Indo-European-Speaking peoples to enter the historical record were the Anatolians who are first attested by about nineteenth century BC.....pp.25 By about the mid-seventeenth century BC the Indo-European speakers are declaring themselves in several different Anatolian languagesBy far the best attested of these is Hittite....The Assyrian merchants of the nineteenth century BC not only record the names of Indo-European peoples in their texts but make it quite clear that there was also a great body of non-Indo-European-speaking peoples in this region.....


pp. 35


"Probably the least-contested observation concerning the various Indo-European dialects is that those languages grouped together as India cand Iranian show such remarkable similarities with one another that we can confidently posit a period of Indo-Iranian unity between Proto-Indo-European language and the subsequent appearance of individual Indic(or Indo-Aryan) and Iranian languages.To these languages we may add the Kafiri language of the Hindukush."



In the beginning:

Following is an attachment to my last post,to discern the primordial origins of the Persians[Kamboj],Medes,Indo-Aryans and Sarmatian tribes.[all representatives [also] of the Androvo grave culture of the 2nd millennium BC]


J.P. Mallory,'In Search of the Indo-Europeans',Thames and Hudson,1989 ed.



pp.8


"In both proposing and demonstrating that the languages of europe,Iran and India had all derived from a common ancestor,James Parsons could well be credit with having independently discovered what we now call the Indo-European language family....In 1796 Jones,Chief Justice of India,founder of the Royal Asiatic Society...presented his famous discourse on Indian culture....Jones made his famous pronouncement on the affinities of the ancient language of India--Sanskrit--which I fear no historian of linguistics can resist quoting:


'The Sanskrit language,is of wonderful structure;more perfect than greek,more copius than Latin,and more exquisitely refined than either;yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity,both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar,than could have been produced by accident;so strong that no philologer could examine all the three without believing them to have sprung from some common source..There is a similar reason,for supposing that both the Gothic and Celtic,though blended with different idiom,had the same origin with the Sanskrit; and the old Persian might be added to the same family.'



COMMENT

We know the later instances of Kambojas/Yavana associations and of their sharing many customs like shaving of heads or following of two varna system or not entertaining anymore the Braghmanas in their countries. In the similar way, the Nysiaoi of Meros were probably a hellenized version of Persian Nisaii. Probably before moving to Hindukush fastnesses during the reign of Darius, these Nisaii had been close associates/neighbors to some Yauna settlement from Greek in Persian land which may have occurred during the earlier Achamenian kings like Cyrus/Kambujya etc.

The Nisaiia may indeed have been Persians, rather than the Greek. It is believable that they had migrated from Achamenian Persia to different parts of north-west/also India, in the earliy BC centuries, probably, during the rule of Darius. The Li-tsa-byis/Lichchivis of Tibet/Nepal are to be connected with these Persian Nisaiis. You must also note that scholars like Dr Michael invest the Sakya clan of Buddha with Iranian affinities.


The other version of Nisaiia is Nisivi or Nisibi. This is close to Nichivi of Kulluka Bhatta, the Bengalese annotator of Manusmariti. Thus Lichichivis was also called Nicchivis which was just another name for Nisibi=Nisivi=Nisiaii or Nysaioi (of Arrian).

Part IV


CONCLUDING COMMENT: If Sakya tribe of Buddha could be invested with Iranain affinities by scholars like Dr Michael, how come we cant see such relationship between the Nisivi/Nisaii/ Nysaioi of Persians affinities and the Nicchivi/Lichchavi of Tibet/Nepal? History needs to be reinvestigated and rewritten in its proper perspective.



It is but natural that during Achemenian Kamboja rule, which comprised almost all of Asia and spanned Greek and Egypt also, many Greeks traders, soldiers of fortunes etc must have come and settled in Persian in Central Asia/north-western regions. As noted above, Persians sources make clear reference to Yaunas (=Ionians) in their records. These Yaunas are in fact the Yonas of Prikrit texts and Yavanas of Sanskrit texts. It is my belief that Yaunas of Persian sources defineely refer to Greek/Ionians population. Initially, the Yaunas of Iranian sources ware recorded as Yavanas/Yonas in Indian sources. But since these Inonian settlers were foreigners and had come from the west, in the later centuries, any other alian population which had come from the west, wether Greeks or non-Greeks, were indiscriminately addresswed as Yavanas in Indian sources.

Some documented settlements of Yaunas/Yavanas in North-west/Central Asia.


(1): Yavanas in Kandhar/Archosia.(post Alexandria)


(2) Bahlika Yavanas in Bacteria..(post Alexandrian)


(3) Prama-Yonas in Central Asia as neighbors to Parama Kambojas..(Pre-Alexandrian)


These Parama Yonas have been noted as Ta-Yuans in Chinese sources and in the opinions of Rene Grousset, Yuan in this term represents the Persian Yauna. K. D. Sethna seems to locate them in Fargana/Sogdhiana region. The language traces of ancient Kamboja connect Yognobhi as one dialect of ancient Kamboja language. This dielect is found on the sources of Zervashan river. Hence this the northern boundaries of Param Kambojas can be supposed to have gone as far as upto Zeravashan river. Hence the Parama Yona, as neighbor to Prama Kamboja can be fixed in Sodgdhiana as K. D. Sethna has suggested.


(4)And the Nysaioi Yavanas of Meros/Hindukush(Pre Alexandrian)..if indeed they were the descendents from the legendary king Dionyses stated to be of Greek origin. My views on these so-called Nysaio yavanas, see Nisaii/Nisibi/Nisaya Persians.

Excuse me for contradictory opinions.



References:

Some Kshatrya Tribes of Ancient India, 1924, pp 1-29, Dr B. C. Law.

Persian Affinities of the LichchavisA Review, by Dr Samar Abbas

Persian Affinities of the Lichchavis By: Prof. (Dr) Satis Chandra Vidyabhusana, MA, MRAS

Indian Antiquary, Vol XXXVII, pp 78-80, Dr Satish Vidyabhusana

Ethnology of Republics, Dr K. P. Jayswal (Hindu

Polity, Part I II, 1978, p 170-179).

Indian Antiquary 1903, pp 233-235

Early History of India, V. A. Smith, 3rd Ed, p 159.

Romantic Legend of Sakya Buddha, p 159, Beal.

Paramatthajotika on Khuddapatha..Buddhaghosa.

Acharya Kulluka Bhatta on Manusmariti


Part III

1. Powerful evidence from Manusmiriti Kulluka Bhattas Annotation;

2. Also see Buddhagosas (4th c Ad) Paramatthajotika on Khuddapatha:


Please note that Kulluka Bhatta and many other scribes of Manusmriti have clearly written Nicchivi instead of Lichchivi. What is more interesting and of most historical importance, the 4th c AD Buddhist commentator, Buddhaghosa, while relating the story of the creation of Lichchvi tribe derives its name from Nicchavi. [see Buddhaghosas Paramatthajotika on Khuddapatha; see Some Kshatrya Tribes of Ancoent India, 1924, p 16-17, Dr B. C. Law]


States Buddhaghosa So that these infants (the mythical ancestors of Lichchavis) owing to their being nicchavi i.e having no skin, they came to be designated as Lichchavis. (Buddhaghosa, Paramatthajotika on Khuddapatha].


Thus, the story described by Buddhaghosa (400 c AD) clearly reveals that the original name of the tribe was Nicchavi and not Lichchavi and that it was only at later times that the name Nichchavi changed to Lichchavi.


IMPORTANT COMMENT: Very Interesting point here.. initially, N was used in place of usual L of LICHCHAVIi.e initially the name was written as Nichchavi instead of Lichchavi, as per Buddhaghosa evidence.


Whad does this indicate?


This means that the ancient and original term or name must have been Nichivi or Nisivi or Nysaioi of Arrian or Nysaii of Merw/Bacteria or Nisaya of Media. In the later centuries, this Nichavi/Nisivi/Nisibi was changed to Lichchavi.


Thus the Nicchavi were probably the the Persian Nisaiis/Nisivis/Nisibis who, during Achemenian ruler Darius, may have moved into northern-eastern Indian territories and only at later times, came to be addressed as Lichchavis, in Indian chronicles.

These Nicchavis or Lichchavis were probably Persians (Kambojas). The Lichchavis have been called LI-TSA-BYI in Tibetean records. We note that several scholars like legendary Foucher, Charles Elliot, V. A. Smith, Dr Gokhale etc etc connect the Kambojas with Tibet. The mode of disposing the dead by ancient Tibeteans was very similar to the one practiced in ancient Persia..exposing the dead to be devoured by wild animals/birds. This practice unequivocally links the ancient Tibeteans rulers with the Persians.why, because according to several noted scholars, the Kambojas were rulers of Tibet and being of Persian stock, the Kambojas probably had also carried the Persian practice of disposing of the deads into Tibet.


If somebody want evidence of Kamboja link to Tibet, I can cite numerous referential quotes from well known scholars of India/world. Already mentioned Dr Smith, Dr Foucher, Dr C. Elliat, and Dr Gokhale etc above. Also from catalogue of Skt/Prkt MSSs in the Library of India Office from Library Office Vol II, Part II[ MSS No 7763, 7771]Also History of Bengal, I, 191, District Gazetteer (Rajashahi) 1915, p 26, Sen . B. C. Some Historical Aspects of the Inscriptions of Bengal, p 342, fn, 1). Also Nepali Traditions call Tibet as Kamboja desha. [on the authority of Pt B. H. Hodgson)


Later we also find Kambojas connected with Burma (see Brahama Purana 53/16) The Buddhist Texts like Sasanvamsa also connect the Kambojas conspicuously with Burma and also Siame.


It is due to these traditions and ancient Puranic/Buddhist evidence that some ambitious writers, in one wild sweep, link the ancient Kambojas simultanously with Tibet, Burma as well as Siam and call this whole region as the ancient Kamboja. See below:


The code of Manu, Indias great law book, states that Dravidas, Yavanas (Greeks), Sakas (Scythians), Pahlavas (Persians), Kambojas (Tibetans, Siamese, Burmese), and Sinas (Chinese), are sprung from Kshatriyas (The Power of India - by Michael Pym).


Part II

Likewise, there were also movements of Persians from old Persian lands into different parts, outside Persia. The Nyasios of Arrian, in fact may have been Persians migrants from either Nisaiia of Merw/Balks or from other Nysa-prefixed geographical place names located in some other parts of Ancient Persia. Thus, at certain time in history, these Nysaioi of Meros may have been associated/neighbors to some Yauna sections of the ancient Greeks/Ionians who, as stated above, may have migrated to these Asian lands from Minor Asia during earlier times and settled as neighbors to Nisaiis people in northern Iran. Due to this probable Nyasiia/Yauna close neighborly associations, some customs of the Nyasiias may have become identical to those of the ancient Ionians*. Later on, some of these northern Iranians/Persians i.e Nysasiites from Nysaiia may have moved to Hindukush ranges and founded their settlement in Meros in the Hindukush slopes during Achamenian rule over this region. These somewhat hellenized section of Nyassias have probably been erroneously identified by Arrian as being one of the earlier Ionian tribe from Greece, which had come and settled into Hindukush escarpments in Swat Valley.


Later, the myth of legendary Dionyses was also invented and connected with these Nysaios of Meros by these classical chauvinistic writers like Arrian. My gut feeling is that the Dionyses/Nyasiai story is not more than another gossip story propagated by classical writers to glorify the achievents of the Ancient Greeks on the cost of Persians or the Indians..at least the story seem to project that in ancient times, some adventurous Greek Hero/Adventurer had come and won this Meros country from the locals and established his kingdom in the heartland of Persians/Indians.



COMMENT* We can cite the examples of Kamboja/Yavana associations and the sharing many customs like shaving of heads or following of two varna system or not entertaining anymore the Braghmanas in their countries. Hence the Niasiia were some what hellanized Persians.

The Nisaiia may indeed have been Persians, rather than the Greek. It is believable that they had migrated from Achamenian Persia to different parts of north-west/also India, in the earliy BC centuries, probably, during the rule of Darius. The Li-tsa-byis/Lichchivis of Tibet/Nepal are to be connected with these Persian Nisaiis. You must also note that scholars like Dr Michael invest the Sakya clan of Buddha with Iranian affinities.


The other version of Nisaiia is Nisivi or Nisibi. This is close to Nichivi, the Lichchivi or Lichchavi of Kulluka Bhatta, the annotator of Manusmariti. The Lichichivis are also called Nicchivis which is just another name for Nisivi/Nisiaii or Nysaioi (of Arrian).


According to Ptolemy,1 Arrian,2, Strabo,3 and other classical writers, Nisibis was a most notable town in Aria to the South-East of the Caspian Sea. Wilson 4 identifies it with the modern town of Nissa (off Herat) on the north of the Elburz Mountains between Asterabad and Meshed. Vines5 grew here abundantly and it is traditionally known to have been the birthplace of the wine-god Dionysos. M. de St. Martin6 observes that Nisibis must have been of Median or Persian foundation, for its name is purely Iranian and figures in the cosmogenic geography of the Zend Avesta, and this observation tallies well with the account of Arrian, who, in his Indika7 distinctly says that the Nysaioi (the inhabitants of Nysa or Nisibis) were not an Indian8 race.


The following has been bugging me for quite some time now. Perhaps you could shed some light on the issue.


The Greek[Ionian] element in the Yavanas,was it derived mainly from the Alexandrian Greeks or the pre-Alexandrian ?


-- It is well attested that Greeks inhabited Afghanistan prior to the arrival of Skandar.In fact,if I recall correctly, Alexander sacked a colony of Afghan-Greeks,worshippers of Dionyses who had been abiding in Afghanistan for generations,because they are supposed to have behaved treacherously towards the Macedonians in antiquity. AG extracted supreme retribution on behalf of his forefathers--


MR Responds

Nysaioi of Meros:

Nisaii/Nyasa and other Nysa-connected place names of Persia

Nisibi/Nisivi Tribe of Ancient Persia

Nicchavi=Lichchavi tribe of Indian texts (Indian/Nepali Texts).

LI-TSA-BYI (Tibetean )


The Nysaioi clan of Meros/Hindukush was probably not a Greek tribe in my view, though, Arrian would like us to believe that they were ancient settlers from Greece who had accompanied Mythical Dionyses in some remote antiquity and settled in this region. The best probability is that the Nysaioi were Persians/Iranians who may have migrated from the place name like Nisaiia located in Merw Bacteria or Nysaya located in Media or else some other place name connected with/derived from prefix Nysa- (Eilers, 1987: 50 Sqq, 70 , lists quite a number of place names in modern Iran that can be derived from Nisa-) long times ago during the or before the Achamenian rule.


Note that actually, Nisaiia was also a geographical place name located in estern Iran between Bacteria and Merw situated north-west of Heart. This Avestan region was very close to Avestan speaking Kambojas and its possible that the inhabitants of Nisaiia were Avestan speaking Persian Kambojas.


There are known to be many Nisaiia versions located in different parts of Ancient Persia/Iran. If you want proof, see Home of Aryans, pp 21/22, 35, by Dr Michael for more information on Nisaii and other Nysa-related geographical names located in ancient Persia. There was also Nisaya, a Dahyu located in Medianorth-west Iran.


See Nisaiia, Nysaya, and othewr Nysa- connected geographical place names in Persia at page 21-22 of the following website..

http://w ww.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/AryanHome.pdf


The Ancient History of Iran, India Greece is only anybodys best guess. But one thing appears indisputable. The ancient civilizations were not existing in complete isolation. During Achamenian rule, the Greeks who were subject people of Persians must have had the opportunity to move from Minor Asia and founded some Greek settlements in other parts of Persian empires as traders, or adventurers/soldiers of fortune. We notice the Ionian term Yauna from Old Persian iunscriptions which surely identifies with Ionians=Greeks. There was also some Ta-Yuan settlements(per Chinese evidence) in Central Asia in Sogdha region, I believe. Further, I believe, that this Ta-Yuan was a also a colony of Greek Ionians/Yaunas of Achamenian period.



Some heavy stuff.I will comment but it will be first impression or 'gut instinct' responses.



. "cf: "Sanskrit name of KABOL is KAMBOJ and this so similar to KAMBOH that on the authority of their traditions, these people (Kamboj/Kamboh)

may safely be regarded to have been the ancient inhabitants of

Kabol. (Supplementary Glossary of India, p 304, Henry M Elliot) "


Wow! I never knew Elliot said the above.Sanskritazion of Kabol is indeed the viable phonetication of Kamboj.Couple that with the traditional location of your people in the region in question ,add the Asvaka/Aspassios['Persian Tribe','horsy Iranians',i.e. Kamboj] element and the case seems very compelling.Also this in your favour--as per Olaf Caroe,the Aspassios were traders of fine horses;Kambojas fit this bill perfectly .



"KAOFEU=KAOFU=KIEU-FEOU= KAMBU=KAMBOJA


Many noted scholars like J. W. McCrindle have accepted the Kaofu (=Kubha/Kophes or Afghanistan)of Hiun Tsang as Kamboja. Mcrindle also states that name Afghan is evidently evolved from Ashvaka, the Assakenois of Arrian.[Magasthenes And Arrian, p 180; Alexandras Invasion of India, p 38, J. W. McCrindle)"


--indeed we have McCrindle,Caroe,Dupree,et. al all confirming the name Afghanistan being derived from the Sanskrit Asvaka.I cannot but agree.I would say air tight.



"In fact, Cunnigham has blantantly errored here in erroneously identifying the Kaofu clan of the Kambojas(Kaofeu) which had transplanted itself from Pamirian/Badakshan Kamboja (=Parama Kamboja) into Kabol valley during second c BC 'as one of the five clans of Yuches or Tukharas'. Undoubtedly, the Chinese 'Kaofeu' translates into Kambu or Kamboj, per Hiun Tsang ...hence the Kaofeu clan of Cunnigham belonged to the Kambojas and not to the Tukharas unless the Tukhara tribe itself was an offshoot from the Trans-Oxian Kambojas. (cf Also Dr Kambojs views, pp 43-44, Ancient Kamboja..1981) "


M., trying to dissect the Yue Chi origins is a loosing battle.Cunningham is at best a tentative source of the 18th century.Plus he timeline chronologies are notoriously unreliable.I agree with you that there is not much substance to his contention.


The Yue Chi or any of their five sections first set foot in Afghanistan only in 160BC.Kamboj had been occupying this region for hundreds of years prior to this event.In the year 2002 Vogelsang said the following regarding them;


pp. 137-138


"The ethnic origin of the Yuezhi is UNKNOWN,and there is even NO firm evidence as to their relationship with the various ethnic groups mentioned by Classical sources.We are neither certain about the exact routes followed by the Yuezhi.


But Vogelsang does spell out the five strains of the Yue Chi,quoting the Han annals.The following section of Vogelsang is derived from the Hou Han Shu(Later Han Annals).It is the only part of Yue Chi ethno-identity supported by numismatic evidence.And indeed the Annal confirms Yue Chi invaded and took over Kao-fu from the hands of Indo-Parthian Gondophares and his successor Abdagases and set foot into Afghanistan sometime in 160BC. So when Yue Chi did arrive,it was the Parthians who were ruling Kabul,not even Kamboj!


note**.Also note,that Yue Chi divided themselves[or the Country] into five sections ONLY AFTER they settled in Bactria in 160BC!!A hundred years later the ruler of Kuei-shuang destroyed the other FOUR arms and made himself supreme ruler of Yue Chi.


pp. 145


"Formerly,when the Yue Chih had been routed by the Hsiung-nu,they moved to Ta-hsia(Bactria?) and divided the country into five hsi hou(yabghu):Hsin-mi,Kuei-shuang,his(or Pa)-tun,and Tu-mi(Termez/Tirmidh?).More than a hundred years passed,the yabghu of Kuei-shuang,(called)Ch'iu-chiu-chueh,attacked and destroyed(the other)four yabghu,st himself up as king.The Kingdom was called Kuei-Shang.The king invaded An-hsi9Parthia),took the country of KAO-FU9Kabul?).He also destroyed P'u-ta and Chi-pin,and completely subjugated them.Ch'iu-chiu-chueh died at the age of more than eighty.Yen-Kao-chen succeeded him as king.He in turn destroyed T'ien-chu(northern India) and placed a general to supervise and govern there.Since that time the Yueh-chih have become most rich and prosperous.(Peopel of) many countries speak of the King of Kuei-shang,but in China they are called Ta Yueh-chih,according to their OLD name."



***note:And the death nail for Cunningham is that 'Kuo Fu' is NOT even one of the five arms of the Yue Chi,as listed by the Hou Han Annal. Again, the five were ,Hsin-mi,Shuang-mi,Kuei-shuang,His-tun,Tu-mi.***


Thanks M.,...




By M/R (130.86.22.89) on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 08:22 am:

FACTS YOUR COMMENTS ARE WELLCOM:


Athavaveda attests the Kamboja which term Dr Michael attributes to Iranian/Avestan speaking tribe and localizes them in the region

from Kabol valley to as far as Archosia/Kandhar.[Early Eastern Iran

and the Atharavaveda, p 115, fn 84, Dr Michael Witzel].

Also cf: his article: THE HOME OF THE ARYAQNS,[fn 21, 58 62] where

he localizes ancient Kamboja around Kandhar/Archosia. But his

Ambautai [=Kamboja], hower, is located somewhere in the Hindukush

mountains north of Kabol[=Kamboja of H. M. Elliot]. Cf S Levi's

Tambyzoi [=Kamboja] localized in Badakshan/on Oxus river [see Indian

Antiquaries, 1923, p 54; Some Problems of Ancient India, p 1, K. D.

Sethna; Ancient Kamboja People the Country, 1981, p p 44, 147, 155,

Dr Kamboj].

http://w ww.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/AryanHome.pdf,


Also we have seen earlier that Kambyson=Kapishi has been identified and connected with Kambojas by eminent Doctors like Dr S. Levi, Dr Taran, Dr W. K. Fraser Tytler, Wilber, and many more scholars. Cf also Kambistholi=Kamboja [H. H. Wilson, Vishnu Purana, p p 160, fn 146]


THUS if these four eminent DoctorsDr S. Levi, Dr Michael, Dr Taran, H. S. Wilson are correct in identifying the Ptolemian/Arrian terms Tambyzoi, Ambautai, Kambyson Kambistholi (Kandhar) as austric-Asian transliteration of Sanskrit Kamboja in the Ptolemys Geography, then the Kamboja foot prints are clearly visible in Tambyzoi[=Badakshan], Ambautai/Hindukush mountains[=Munjan/Wakhan/ Kafirsthan/Kohistan?],Kambyson (=Kapishi= Begram/Lamghan) as also in Kambistholi [=Kandhar per Arrian].


Note that all these terms appear to have been connected with/derived from the

Standard Sanskrit term Kamboja in the opinions of these eminent scholars.


FACTS: Any comments?


cf: "Sanskrit name of KABOL is KAMBOJ and this so similar to KAMBOH that on the authority of their traditions, these people (Kamboj/Kamboh)

may safely be regarded to have been the ancient inhabitants of

Kabol. (Supplementary Glossary of India, p 304, Henry M Elliot)


KAOFEU=KAOFU=KIEU-FEOU= KAMBU=KAMBOJA


Hiun Tsang also refers to the region of Afghanistan as Kaofu, which term is eqquivbalent to Sanskrit Kamboja. [see Problems of Ancient India, 2000, p 224, K. D. Sethna; Also Chandergupta Mauryan and His Times, Madras, 1943, p 280, Dr K. R. K. Mukerjee]

Many noted scholars like J. W. McCrindle have accepted the Kaofu (=Kubha/Kophes or Afghanistan)of Hiun Tsang as Kamboja. Mcrindle also states that name Afghan is evidently evolved from Ashvaka, the Assakenois of Arrian.[Magasthenes And Arrian, p 180; Alexandras Invasion of India, p 38, J. W. McCrindle)


Cf According to Chinese recensions of Tathagatagrahamsutra of Ratnakuta, the Sanskrit name Kamboja has been refered to as Kieufeou and in Tinbetean recensions, it is found mentioned as Kampoje or Kampoce etc [See Political Social Movements in Ancient Panjab, pp 254-256, Dr Buddha Parkash; cf Ancient Kamboja1981, p 47, Dr Kamboj; cf These Kamboj People, 1979, p 355, Kirpal Singh Dardi.]


According to Cunnigham, "The Kao-fu was the appellation of one of the

five tribes of the Yuchi or Tukhari, who are said to have given their

own name to the town which they occupied, towards the end of second

century before Christ (The Ancient Geography of India, p 15).


In fact, Cunnigham has blantantly errored here in erroneously identifying the Kaofu clan of the Kambojas(Kaofeu) which had transplanted itself from Pamirian/Badakshan Kamboja (=Parama Kamboja) into Kabol valley during second c BC 'as one of the five clans of Yuches or Tukharas'. Undoubtedly, the Chinese 'Kaofeu' translates into Kambu or Kamboj, per Hiun Tsang ...hence the Kaofeu clan of Cunnigham belonged to the Kambojas and not to the Tukharas unless the Tukhara tribe itself was an offshoot from the Trans-Oxian Kambojas. (cf Also Dr Kambojs views, pp 43-44, Ancient Kamboja..1981)



The following has been bugging me for quite some time now. Perhaps you could shed some light on the issue.


The Greek[Ionian] element in the Yavanas,was it derived mainly from the Alexandrian Greeks or the pre-Alexandrian ?


-- It is well attested that Greeks inhabited Afghanistan prior to the arrival of Skandar.In fact,if I recall correctly, Alexander sacked a colony of Afghan-Greeks,worshippers of Dionyses who had been abiding in Afghanistan for generations,because they are supposed to have behaved treacherously towards the Macedonians in antiquity. AG extracted supreme retribution on behalf of his forefathers--




Following rehash is for my own benifit and formulation of thoughts,for future quick refrence:



"ARRIANs KAMBISTHOLI = KAMBOJA of H. H. Wilson

We have part of the name Kambi in Kambistholi of Arrian, the last two syllables, no doubt, represent the Sanskrit Sthala place, district, and the word denotes the dwellers in the Kamba or Kambis country, so Kambojas may be explained as those born in Kamba or Kambis.[H. H. Wilso The Vishnu Purana, p 160, fn 146]."



"PTOMEMIAN KAMBYSON =KAPISHA =KAMBOJA OF Dr TARAN, Dr S Levi, W. K. Fraser Tytler, Wilber and others ."


"According to S Levi, the Tambyzoi located on Oxus in accordance with Ptolemys evidence is also the asutro-asiatic transliteration of Sanskrit Kamboj into Ptolemian Geography. [Indian Antiquaries, 203, 1923, p 54; cf McCrindle, Ptolemy, p 268; Problems of Ancient India, 2000, Sethna, p 1; Ancient Kamboja Dr Kamboj.]"



M says, "I dont think, the Ashvaka tribe is ever mentioned in Mahabharata (contrary to what you have posted).."


You're probably right.Olaf Caroe must have made an error in this instant.



Thanks,




By MR (130.86.22.40) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 10:21 pm:

SOME PTOLEMIAN TERMS:


AMBAUTAI= KAMBOJA of DR MICHAEL


Dr Michael: "..Obviously, the NW and the clearly non-IA tribes limited to the RV should be regarded separately. Here we find Kamboja (AV, PS+), cf. OP. Kambujiya 'Cambyses' .. however, cf. Gr. Ambautai, a tribe in the Hindukush area, with the typical Saka suffix -tai (Sauroma-tai, etc.).107 An interchange k : zero "points in the direction of Munda" (Kuiper 1991: 38; cf S Levi, IA, 203, 1923, p 52 sqq) which would be rather surprising at this extreme western location in E. Afghanistan (Witzel 1980). ..


Concludes Dr Michael: "Anyway, as all Rig-Vedic ethnography is uncertain, the case remains open........"


http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=%22+Ambautai% 2C+a+tribe+in+the+Hindukush%22+ei=UTF-8


Dr Michael argues that, linguistically,

K = = > S

K == > 0

Hence Kamboj == > Samboj and also Kamboj == > Kambau+tai == > Ambautai


Thus the term Ambautai of Ptlomemy is identified as Autsro-Asiatic transliteration of Kamboja and which per Ptolemian evidence is located in Hindu Kush mountains obviously in the territories to the south of Oxus. This may applies to Munjan, Wakhan or some locations on southern slopes of Hindukushmay be Kohistan/Kaffirstan which region is still inhabted by warlike Kamoze/Camoje/Kam tribes of Hindukush.


But Dr Witzel, otherwise locates his Kamboja mainly in Kandhar/Archosia. See below.Why?.


http://w ww1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0501/ejvs0501a.txt


... The kamboja (AV, PS) settled in SE Afghanistan (Kandahar); cf. O.Pers. kambujIya (or kambaujIya?) 'Cambyses'; however, their name is

transmitted as Ambautai by ...


For Ambautai=Kambautai, see also note 98 of the following paper from Dr Michael Witzel where he further dilates on this term and its linguistic implications/connections..


.perhaps one should compare the scythian plural suffix tai .suffix such as in the Ambautai = [(K)ambautai?? =Kamboja] , Ptolemys Geography 6.18.3 [see Italo Ronaco Ostrian und Zentralasien bei pulomemasios, Dis Mainz 1968 p 121 cf also Bulitai]


http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:crwB9OpBOe0J:w ww.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/hydro.pdf+ambautaihl=enie=UTF-8


PTOLEMIAN TAMBYZOI =KAMBOJA OF Dr S Levi others.


According to S Levi, the Tambyzoi located on Oxus in accordance with Ptolemys evidence is also the asutro-asiatic transliteration of Sanskrit Kamboj into Ptolemian Geography. [Indian Antiquaries, 203, 1923, p 54; cf McCrindle, Ptolemy, p 268; Problems of Ancient India, 2000, Sethna, p 1; Ancient Kamboja Dr Kamboj.]


This Ptolemian Tambyzoi, on the otherhan, appears to be mainly located in Badakshan.


PTOMEMIAN KAMBYSON =KAPISHA =KAMBOJA OF Dr TARAN, Dr S Levi, W. K. Fraser Tytler, Wilber and others .


"The city of Gange is also mentioned by Ptolemy, but he distinguishes it from Tamralipti. He mentions five mouths of the Ganges: the KAMBYSON mouth, the most western; the Mega; the KAMBERIKHON; the Pseudostomon and the Antibole. There are contradictions as to the

tributaries of the Ganges. Kambyson has been identified as the Kapisa by great grammarian of the region Panini. The Mega has been

identified with Hooghly......


[From: South Asia: Eastern Himalayan Culture, Ecology and People Ancient Heritage and Future Prospects Hasna Jasimuddin Moudud ]


ARRIANs KAMBISTHOLI = KAMBOJA of H. H. Wilson

We have part of the name Kambi in Kambistholi of Arrian, the last two syllables, no doubt, represent the Sanskrit Sthala place, district, and the word denotes the dwellers in the Kamba or Kambis country, so Kambojas may be explained as those born in Kamba or Kambis.[H. H. Wilso The Vishnu Purana, p 160, fn 146].


Now the KAMBISTHOLI of Arrian is located in Kandhar/Afghanistan.



Facts, on the Assakenois/Aspasios, I will presnt the material later.


Thanks for your data on Assakenos (Ashvakaynas of Panini's Ashtadhyai... the Ashvakas of Markanda Purana, and the Assakas of Buddhist Jatakas)


...The Ashvakas/Ashvakayanas were indianized kind of Kamboja clans


And the Aspasios (Ashvayanas of Panini's Ashtadhyai...)


The Aspasa/Aspasian Kamboja clans were more Iranians than Indians in culture/language].


Thus again we see that Kambojas had come to acquire both both Indian as well as Iranian cultural/linguistic connections with passage of time.

Aspasas/Aspasios.


I dont think, the Ashvaka tribe is ever mentioned in Mahabharata (contrary to what you have posted)..though we find references to Ashvaka/Ashmaka in Markanda Puranas/Jatakas etc.


The Paninian equivalents for Ashvakas are Ashvakayana and Ashvayana tribes of Kunar/Swat valleys.


Thanks




By Facts (24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 03:28 pm:

M--


Following is a wonderful map of the Yavana-Kamboja-Gandhara and surrounding country.I can clearly make out Gandhara and the Parpamysade -Kabul area, where Kamboja and Yavana was located(Yes?)!


http://ww w.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ucb/oxus-indus.jpg


Could you point out to me exactly where the Y-K-G territories are roughly situated by refering to corresponding place names from the above map. Put it in perspective.


...... O.K.!,that's enough for today.




By Facts (24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 03:02 pm:

M.,


Check this out--


http://ww w.jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2003-weekly/nos-16-02-2003/dia.htm



All in a name

By Salman Rashid


"As for the word Afghan, it comes from the Sanskrit word Ashvaka where ashva stands for horse. Now ashva of the Sanskrit transforms into asp in the Persian in which language these people were called Aspagan. One has to be completely tone-deaf not to see the transformation of Aspagan to Afghan through usage. From the chronicles of Alexander the Macedonian we hear of two tribes called Assakenoi and Aspasioi that he fought with and defeated in the region of the Katgala Pass between Swat and Dir. Assakenoi is a straightforward Hellenised version of Ashvaka (Assaka in the vernacular) while Aspasioi is what the word Aspzai -- Tribe of the Horse, became on Macedonian tongues..Among these people was one tribe -- the Aspzai -- of excellent horsemen who were known for breeding and trading in the finest horses. The mind does not have to be taxed hard to see the modern, duly Islamised tribal name of Yusufzai as coming from the ancient Aspasioi or Aspzai."




By Facts (24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 07:22 am:

M.,


Here's some research on the Asskenois/Aspasios.



(1)Following is what Louis Dupree,the world specialist in Afghan studies says:


Louis Dupree,Afghanistan,Princeton University Press,Princeton,New Jersey,1973 ed.


pp.282-283


Travelling through Bamiyan and the Ghorband Valley(Tarn 1966,88) he [Alexander ]reached Alexandria-ad-Caucasum in ten days.Near Jalalbad,Alexander split his army into two major groupsHis troops poured through Laghman and followed the Kunar River into Bajaur and Swat,fighting all along the way,meeting on equal terms such warlike groups as the Aspassi(Bajauri) and the Assaceni(Swatis,with capital at Massaga),who wounded him in the ankle.The Kafirs(Edelberg,1965) living near Nysa(not Swat as suggested by Tarn,1962,89) in Kunar(Koh-I-nor,traditionally founded by Dionysius) sent 300 cavalry to fight with Alexander against Poros(the PAURAVA Rajah of the Punjab)whome Alexander defeated with great skill at the battle at the Jhelum in 326BC.(Fuller,1958).



(2)Following is what Olaf Caroe says.


Olaf Caroe,The Pathans 550BC--AD1957,Macmillan Co Ltd.,New York,1965 ed.



.Aspasoii country in Gandhara.


O.C.,pp. 37-38


It need hardly be said that acceptance of the equation Aparutai with Aparidaifor that is how the Afridis pronounce itby no means carries with it the conclusion that the Apautai of Darius 7th satrapy occupied the identical territory in Tirah,Bazar,and the Khaibar and Kohat Pass,now held by the Aparidai.But it is to be noted that the Aparutai are mentioned as a tribe inhabiting a territory in that satrapy near to,if not contiguous with,the Gandarioi,and there is no doubt whatever that the Gandarioi are the people of the Peshawar Valley.And,as we know,the Aparidais home today is just there,next to the Peshawar Valley.Moreover the homes of the greater number of the Aparidai are situated in mountain eyries,hard of approach and leading nowhere but to alpine pastures in the Sufed Koh from 10000 to 15000 feet above the sea


Arrain :


pp. 49-50,O.C.,


It remains to consider Alexanders own route.I give here a translation of the relevant portions of Arrains text:


Alexander took command in person of the other division of the army.And advanced into the country of the Aspassi and Guraei and Assaceni.The route which he followed was hilly and rugged and lay along the course of a river called the choes,which he had difficulty crossing[later]he advanced to the river Euaspla where the chief of the Aspassi was ...[and after operations] then crossed the mountains,and came to a city at their base named Arigaion,As this city seemed to occupy a very advantageous site,he commanded Craterus to fortify it strongly[and after further battles in which he defeated the Aspassi] he marched thence to invade the country of the Assaceni,Craterus,who had now finished the work of fortifying Arigaion,the country of the Guraei,where he had to cross the Guraeus,the river giving the name to the country..Alexander took the city by storm and captured the mother and daughter of Assacenus..



pp. 55There remain the names of the tribes,the Aspassi,the Guraei and the Assaceni,whome Alexander overcame ni the country between Kunar and Swat.From what has been said it is clear that the Aspassi lived on both sides of the divide which now carries the Durrand line,both in Kunar and in Bajaur,the Guraei in what is now Lower Dir on the Panjkora,and the Assaceniin whose territory Massaga,Bazira and Ora were suitatedin Talash and the Swat valley.



.On the origins of Aspassi, Olaf Caroe clearly says they were a Persian Tribe..


pp. 55 -56


To the identity of the Aspassi there is an interesting clue in Strabo,who calls them hippasi.Now the Avestan Persian for a horse is aspa,the modern Persian asb,and the Pakhtu as,aspa(horse,mare).The fact that Strabo translated the name of this tribe into Hippasii proves that he was aware of its etymological significance.Clearly we have here something both horsy and Iranian.


In the course of recent discussions on the origins of Yusufzais it was remarked to me,without any refrence whatever to arrains tribal names,that the ordinary Yusufzai villager never refers to himself as Yusufzai,but as Isapzai or even Asapzai.My interlocutor,one of the Khans of hoti,added that it seemed probable to him that,with the advent of Islam,his ancestors decided to assimilate an old word to the scriptures,with the result that Asap or Isap became Yusuf(Joseph).


Long years in court spent listening to Yusufzai witnesses confirm this phonetic transferenceanother instance of the afridis p for f. The equation cannot be proved,but it is attractive to see in the Aspasii of Arrain and Hippasii of Strabo the prototype of the Isapzai of today.


The Assaceni of Swat,no less than the Aspasii of Kunar and Bajaur,have a name derived from chivalry.The Sanskrit word for horse is asva,and a tribe named the Asvaka is mentioned in the Mahabharta as the barbarous denizens of the far north.The Sanskrit Asvaka would become Assaka in Prakrit,leading directly to the Greek transcription .So here we have Indian in place of Persian horsesmost suitable,for just as the Aspasii,a Persian tribe,lived in Kunar and Bajaur,so the Assaceni,an Indian tribe,dwelt in Talash and Swat.As we would expect at that time,the dividing line between Iran and India would have been somewhere between the Kunar and the Swat Rivers,possibly on the Guraeus or Panjkora River.Later records establish that the inhabitants of Swat and the regions east of Panjkora had Indian affinities until the time of the Pathan occupation in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries.




By Facts (24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 05:31 am:

MR,


A slight change of gears--



cf: The Kamboja (AV, PS) settled in S.E. Afghanistan (Kandahar); cf. O.Pers. KambujIya (or KambaujIya?) 'Cambyses'; however, their name is transmitted as Ambautai by Ptolemy (Geography 6.18.3), without the typical prefix).. (Ref: ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES, Vol. 5 (1999), issue 1 (September), Editor-in Chief Dr Michael Wintzel, Sanskrit Department, Harvard University).


-----


As per Witzel,Kamboj is the Ambutai of Ptolemy. Now this region[people] was located in/around the Oxus,yes!?Is this [Ambutai] also not the Asskenois/Aspasios of Arrian,or am I way off base here?


Also ,if you could please furnish [all] sources drawing analogy with Kamboj and Asskenois/Aspasios,at your leisure.I hope I'm not imposing.


Thank You,




By Facts (24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 02:29 am:

Not bad Sunny.


But I'll believe it when you print the five pages.


I'm interested in the following two books:


--."The Kanyakubja-Gaua struggle, from the sixth to the twelfth century A.D. / D.C. Sircar. "


I'm going to read the following pretty soon:


-A grammar of the Prakrit language, based mainly on Vararuchi, Hemachandra, and Purushottama [by] D. C. Sircar


These might be relevant for Kamboj studies:


Inscriptions of Asoka / D. C. Sircar.


-Epigraphic discoveries in East Pakistan, by D. C. Sircar

-Asokan studies / by D.C. Sircar.




By MR (130.86.22.182) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 02:19 am:

Facts:

In the edicts, they are gruped together, which means that they were neighbors situated in this order. The enumeration is scientific, being in geographical sequence from west to east, which is also confirmed by Arrian

MR,could you possibly expound on Arrain with regard to the above?


MR

Hi Facts:

Arrian places the Astekenois, Assaknois and Aspasios tribes (=Kambojas of scholars like Dr E. Lamotte, Dr Jayswal, Dr H.C Raychaudhary, Dr B. N. Mukerjee, J.W. McCrindle, Dr Buddha Parkash etc) between the Gandharas and the Yavanas. He locates his Gandhara tribes in a place name which he calls Puskalaveti and which has now been identified with modern Peshawer and its adjoining areas.


According to Dr Jayswal, the Asskenois/Aspasios of Arrian occupy exactly the same geographical place as the Kambojas of king's Ashoka's Rock Edicts (V XIII). [see his Hindu Polity, Part I II, 1978, p 140]




By Sunny Singh (207.213.221.191) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 02:16 am:

Hi Facts,


It is available, I may take a look at it this weekend. It seems he wrote some other interesting books:


-Ancient Malwa and the Vikramaditya tradition, by D.C. Sircar.

-Studies in Indian coins, by D. C. Sircar

-Indian epigraphical glossary [by] D. C. Sircar

-Cosmography and geography in early Indian literature

-Studies in the society and administration of ancient and medieval India, by D. C. Sircar

-Early Indian numismatic and epigraphical studies / by D. C. Sircar.

-Studies in the religious life of ancient and medieval India [by] D. C. Sircar.

-Pracyavidya-taragi; golden jubilee volume of the Department of Ancient Indian History and Culture. Edited by D. C. Sircar.

-The Kanyakubja-Gaua struggle, from the sixth to the twelfth century A.D. / D.C. Sircar.

-A grammar of the Prakrit language, based mainly on Vararuchi, Hemachandra, and Purushottama [by] D. C. Sircar

-Early Indian trade and industry / edited by D.C. Sircar.

-Aspects of the cultural history of ancient Bihar / by D.C. Sircar.

-Inscriptions of Asoka / D. C. Sircar.

-Problems of the Ramayana / by D.C. Sircar.

-The successors of the Satavahanas in lower Deccan [microform] / by Dineschandra Sircar.

-Problems of early Indian social history / D.C. Sircar.

-Some problems concernig the Kusanas

-Land system and feudalism in ancient India; [proceedings] Edited by D. C. Sircar.

-Foreigners in ancient India and Laksmi and Sarasvati in art and literature / edited by D. C. Sircar

-The Guhilas of Kikindha, by D. C. Sircar.

-Sraddhanjali, studies in ancient Indian history : D.C. Sircar commemoration volume / editors, K.K. Das Gupta, P.K. Bhattacharyya, R.D. Choudhury

-A grammar of the Prakrit language : based mainly on Vararuchis Prakitaprakasa / by Dines Chandra Sircar.

-Saskrtika itihasera prasaga / Dinesacandra Sarakara.

-Select inscriptions bearing on Indian history and civilization.

-The Bharata war and puranic genealogies; [seminar papers]. Edited by D. C. Sircar.

-Indological studies : Prof. D.C. Sircar commemoration volume / edited by S.K. Maity, Upendra Thakur.

-Pala-purba yugera basanucarita / Dinesacandra Sarakara.

-Some epigraphical records of the medieval period from eastern India / D. C. Sircar.

-Social life in ancient India. Edited by D. C. Sircar.

-Indian epigraphy, by D. C. Sircar.

-Silalekha-Tamrasasanadira prasaga

-Resama

-Pracina itihasera kahini.

-Epigraphic discoveries in East Pakistan, by D. C. Sircar

-Asokan studies / by D.C. Sircar.

-Select inscriptions bearing on Indian history and civilization : from the sixth to the eighteenth century A.D. / edited by Dines Chandra Sircar.

-Inscriptions of Parakesarivarman. General editor: D. C Sircar. Editor: G. V. Srinivasa Rao. Issued by G. S. Gai.

-Sri Dinesacandrika, studies in Indology : Shri D.C. Sircar/ editors, B.N. Mukherjee ... [et al.].

-The Sakti cult and Tara [papers of seminars]. Edited by D. C. Sircar.

-The Sakta pihas. [Edited by] D. C. Sircar.


Regards,




By Facts (24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 01:07 am:

Sunny,


Prove your point. Quote from the following book pp.195-200,then I'll believe you have the most comprehensive library:


Sircar,D.C.,Studies in the Geography of Ancient and Medieval India(Delhi 1971;1997 second and revised edition).


Or do you want to be known as the 'gappi' of Punjabi Talk?




By Sunny Singh (207.213.221.191) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 12:38 am:

Hi Facts, living in California, I have access to books you can only dream of obtaining. Hows the weather in Calgary? Best Wishes,




By Facts (24.69.255.204) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:27 pm:

MR,


Rehash,to formulate my thoughts.



In the edicts, they are gruped together, which means that they were neighbors situated in this order. The enumeration is scientific, being in geographical sequence from west to east, which is also confirmed by Arrian


MR,could you possibly expound on Arrain with regard to the above?



"Yavanas are belived in southern Archosia/Kandhar, the Gandharan were in Peshawere/Taxila-Rawalpindi on west side of Kabol river, The Kambojas in Kabol valley and according to Sircar and Michael, also in northern Kandhar, you can imagine the kind of geographical relationship this had."


Gandhara would therefore be more fully affected by events stemming from India proper than the other two.Gandhara was much more 'Indianized' I bet, comparatively speaking.



"I have also noted couple of western references which invest Kambojas and Gandhara with one ethnicity. I would search and put up here. And this is very natural too."


Indeed,this is to be expected.



"The YONE-KAMBOJ-ESU of Pali texts represent the YONAS who had settled (with Kambojas)in the Kamboja (country). They had become integral a part of this (Kamboja) country and started to be considered more as the Kambojas than the Yonas or Yavanas....[see Hindu polity, Part I II, A Constitutional History of Hindu India, Dr Jayswal]."


I will go so far as to conclude that all three were basically pretty much similar;racially,socially,culturally.



"He(Sircar) exclusively invests the Kambojas with pure Iranian ethnicity/affinities. "


Is this not correct?-putting the Yavana element aside.



"I dont think, the "Studies in Geography of Ancient Mediaval India" by Dr Sircar is going to present any revolutionary information on the Kambojas."


I suppose it's not paramount then to attain a copy of it.(As long as we can still attain an expert knowledge of Y-K-G without it,which I'm sure we can).Nevertheless I give it a try .



Thanks,




By MR (130.86.22.190) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:13 am:

FACTS


I got faculty staff to do comprehensive search on Sircar volume in question from our library and sister branches,but we don't have that one in stock!


Worse comes to worse I'll request a special packaging order....Now I'm even more curious to know what's in those five pages.


In the meanwhile, I have two books on Sircar at my disposal ,one is on the Prakrits. I'll try to get them as soon as possible.



MR


I dont think Sircar has much to say on the Kambojas except concentrating on the possible geographical location of Kamboja, based on ancient/medieval texts and the inscriptions.


I have read some of his material.


(1) He exclusively invests the Kambojas with pure Iranian ethnicity/affinities.


(2)In his different research articles which he published over time, Dr Sircar seems to locate Kambojas mainly to the southern side of Hindukush......


In one of his research papers, Dr Sircar has placed his Pir Panchal in south-west of Kashmir and has located his Kamboja starting from this Pir-Panchal i.e south-west Kashmir, West Panjab to as far as Mlechchadesha i.e the Moslem Iran. He based his conclusions on the medieval text ShaktiSangamtantra. [See his Panchala Kambvoja Bahlika and Pandu-Pandya....Journal of Ancient Indian History Vol I, part 1-2, 1967-68, pp 195-97.]


Dr Sircar had read the above refered paper in the Masik Sangoshati. [Ref Ancient Kambokja, People the Country, 1980, Dr Kamboj]


Later in another discussion article which had appeared in the Purana [See Purana, Vol V, No 2, July, 1963; pp 355-359; also Purana Vol IV, No I, Jan 1964, pp 215-219], which I have already refered to in my earlier write ups, he has also located main concentration of Kambojas in Archosia/Kandhar.


Comment:

The medieval age "Shakti Sangam Tantra" text refers to the Kamboja country as the land of plent for quality horses and further locates this Kamboja starting from Panchala to as far as the Mlechchadesha. Now the Mlechchadesha here, during medieval ages, was known as the land of Moslem Iran. Dr Sircar accepts this the Panchal as 'Pir Panchal' located in the south-west of Kashmir and thus extends the Kamboja to the west as far as Moslem Iran. Hence Dr Sircar's location of Kamboja as above.


Also based on Shar-i-kuna inscriptions of king Ashoka, which are located in Kandhar/Archosia, Dr Sircar also finds main concentration of Kambojas in Archosia/Kandhar. Dr Michael also agrees with Dr Sircar in his Persica-9, Early Eastern Iran and the Atharavaveda, 1980.pp 114, fn 80.


Hence from Dr Sircar, we note that the Kambojas are located starting from SW Kashmir/Rajari to Kabol valley [Kamboja of Dr H. C. Rauychaudhury, Dr Bhandarkar, Dr B. C. Law, Dr Jayswal etc] and also in Kandhar/Archosia where he locates main concentration of Kambojas.


K. D. Sethna locates Yavanas in southern Kandhar/Archosia and locates or starts his Kamboja in northern Kandhar and comes down to Kabol. The Parama Kamboja of scholars Sethna, Dr M. R. Singh, C Lewis, Dr Jya Lal's as affirmed from Mahabharata lies in Transhindkush territoies on Oxus river....Tambyzoi of Ptolemy (see Indian Antiquaries, 203, p 54, S Levi; cf McCrindle, Ptolemy, p 268).


I dont think, the "Studies in Geography of Ancient Mediaval India" by Dr Sircar is going to present any revolutionary information on the Kambojas. But still, if you or some body else accesses the reference, it would be a good idea to have entire information from pp 195-200, put on this thread.


Thanks.




By MR (130.86.22.26) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:54 am:

Facts:

"How much intermarriage,in yuor opinion,took place between Yavana(Greeks) and Kambojas?"


MR:

One can only make a guess. I think your guess would be as good as mine.


BTW: The closer the different tribes are in space and time, the more extensive is the mixing...this is natural.


The Kambojas and Yavanas fairly qualify both these requirements as we know from ancient history. This is also reflected from the fact that both these great ancient people of north-west had many similar social customs....like both having only TWO SOCIAL CLASSES of people...Arya Slaves [Ayyo Dasa of Buddhist

Text Majjhima Nikaya 2/149] and further, both people wearing their head HAIR SHORT (Kambojah mundah yavanah munda).


Further their religious practices are also supposed to have become similiar......there are stated to be

no BRAHMANAS in the lands of both Yavanas and the Kambojas at the time of Ashoka...(3rd c BC).


Dr Jayswal observes: " Ramayana Kishkanada (43,11) mentions 'KKAMBOJA-YAVANA caiya' and Pali texts mention them as YONE-KAMBOJ-ESU.....The YONE-KAMBOJ-ESU of Pali texts represent the YONAS who had settled (with Kambojas)in the Kamboja (country). They had become integral a part of this (Kamboja) country and started to be considered more as the Kambojas than the Yonas or Yavanas....[see Hindu polity, Part I II, A Constitutional History of Hindu India, Dr Jayswal].


The above statent can give some estimate of Kamboja/Yavana mixing.


Rest is any body's guess.




By MR (130.86.22.90) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:06 am:

Facts:

Regarding the idiom --Yona-Kamboja-Gandhara---------

Is there any significance to the order in which it is spelled out?I think it's always vocalized in this order.


MR

I also think so.


The above conjugal expression i.e. Yona-Kamboja-Gandharnam.


is from Ashokas Rock Edict No V, which is found in Mansehra in Hazara in N.W.F.P. Pakistan; Shahbazgarhi in Peshawer (north-west) ;Kalsi in Dehradun/UP; Girnar in Junagad/Surashtrara and Dhauli in Bhubneshwer in Orissa.


Mahabharata also contains similar kind of conjugal expressions about these three people.


See for example:

Uttrapathajanmaan: kirartyshyaami taanpi/

Yona kamboja gandhara kirata barbarah saha//

[MBH 12/207/43]


More examples can be quoted like these.


Name Yona alone is also numerously associated with Kamboja.


Yone-Kambojesu ( Ashoka's Rock Edict XIII)

Yone-Kamboj-esu (Majjhima Nikaya II 149)


Kamboja-yavanashchaya (Ramayana k 43)

Kamboja-Yavana-Saka-Parda (Ramayana 4-12)


Kambojairbahlika..... (MBH 7/75/17, 2/27/22...Bahlika =Yavanas)


Tatha yavana-kamboja mathuramabhitashcha ye (MBH 12/101/5)

..................


Does the order signify anithing?


Regarding Yona-Kamboja-Gandhara expression, many writers think that the order

is scientific and defines these territories located in that orderthe Kamboja coming between the Yona and the Gandhara . You can read for example, Dr K. P. Jayswal, in his Hindu Polity, Part I, 1978, p 140.


In the edicts, they are gruped together, which means that they were neighbors situated in this order. The enumeration is scientific, being in geographical sequence from west to east, which is also confirmed by Arrian


Facts

Significantly,was the territorial integrity of these three nations linear(i.e. Kamboja sandwiched between Yona and Gandhara country,and therefore not truly contiguous) or triangular(i.e. all three nations sharing common boders)?


MR

Yavanas are belived in southern Archosia/Kandhar, the Gandharan were in Peshawere/Taxila-Rawalpindi on west side of Kabol river, The Kambojas in Kabol valley and according to Sircar and Michael, also in northern Kandhar, you can imagine the kind of geographical relationship this had.


Facts:

Yona/Yavana Country = Ionian people = Indo-Greeks[at least the primordially]

Kamboja Country = Kamboj/Kamboh people

But what of Gandhara? I haven't heard of any people

called Gandharans?


MR

The descendents of Gandhara dont exist as Gandharas today. They changed to other names or probably merged with other communities over the time, just like Kurus, Panchalas, Kosal;as, Chedis, Matasya, Madras or Kaikayas also lost their ancient ethnic names. Do we hear the names of these ancient tribes in todays population of northern India? or do we hear of Saka, Kushana or Huna names these days?. answer is NO.

The descendents of these above ancient tribes are believed to be represented by certain population of north-west which has different names now. Also only a very minuscule % of ancient Pahlavas and the Kambojas people have dragged their ancient ethnic names to the current century. Major portion of the population has already dropped the ancient name like other ancient tribes as stated above and integrated into other communities of northern India.


Modern day Kamboj have some clan names like Gande, Gandhe, Gainde, Gaindher etc which remind one of name Gandhara and thus also a possible Kamboja-Gandhara connection.


I have also noted couple of western references which invest Kambojas and Gandhara with one ethnicity. I would search and put up here. And this is very natural too.




By Facts (24.69.255.204) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:13 am:

Sunny,


Why don't you concentrate on your Mickey-Mouse history.

...We're trying to hold a serious discussion here.


P.S. Want to help us out on Sircar?.--check your library in California. Make yourself useful instead of being envious of the Kamboj history.




By Sunny Singh (207.213.221.191) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 04:15 am:

Hi Facts,


You're a joke.


Regards,




By Facts (24.69.255.204) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 03:24 am:

MR,


I got faculty staff to do comprehensive search on Sircar volume in question from our library and sister branches,but we don't have that one in stock!


Worse comes to worse I'll request a special packaging order....Now I'm even more curious to know what's in those five pages.


In the meanwhile, I have two books on Sircar at my disposal ,one is on the Prakrits. I'll try to get them as soon as possible.





Saif Fazel

Library:

Saif Fazel

Author:

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